Special Tool 18G1086

[998auto]

I have an issue with my starter motor jamming on the ring gear. The starter motor is okay so I can only assume that the ring gear is worn.

1.) Is Special Tool 18G1086 as described in Haynes required to remove the Torque Converter and replace the ring gear or is there another way to do it.

2.) Could it be being caused by a different problem either oil pressure or compression? Shortly before I took it off the road it started misfiring so I was wondering if compression may be an issue.

998auto

[Admin/Founder 2]

Hi
and welcome to the register we have an expert on board you might like to PM him his name is Martin username mra-minis.co.uk

He will know ill see if i can get him online for you
I know that often some of the Specific tools for Autos are often now discontinued but resourceful individual often make there own that do the same job

One thing i will advise you on though is dont touch the bolts around the torque convertor!! if memory serves me correct i think theres six of them? Never ever remove these otherwise thats the end of the torque convertor

There was an excelent article in Mini Magazine a couple of months ago on Auto Transmissions and i think they had such a makeshift homemade tool ill check for you

Huggz
Jodie

[kalkat]

Hmm....the ring gear on autos is welded to the torque converter :S this makes changing it a VERY awkward job.

Are you sure that the solenoid plunger is retracting properly on your starter? I'd be inclined to strip it down and clean the 'slug' and the bore of the solenoid, checking for rust on both and see how that turns out perhaps?

Emma

[Admin/Founder 2]

Your a dark Horse Emma
You really know your stuff
Im just learning to be honest though want to learn ;D

This is exactly what we hoped for those of us with knowledge to share it with those of us who need it

Great Stuff

Keep it up Emma

Huggz
Jodie

[kalkat]

I knows y'knows

Emma

[kalkat]

Just a quick thought........you do have thee right starter pinion for your ring gear? I believe there are two different tooth numbered ones

Emma

[998auto]

Hi Joloke & Kalkat,

I think I will have to replace the whole Torque Converter as it comes as a kit. Between £300 & £400 from Somerford Mini if I remember correctly.

Had this problem well over a year ago, looked at the teeth on the starter motor and replaced that. It solved it for about 6 months with the odd jam (always at the worst time, namely when I was running late for something) however its now got to the point where I cannot stop the engine without it jamming.

It also jams so tight that I have to remove the spark plugs to lower the compression and turn crankshaft by hand (using fan/fanbelt etc) to release it.

I've tester the plunger on the starter motor and that retracts easily when not in the car.
I have the older model where the solenoid is a seperate unit (which thankfully is cheaper to replace when you get the clicking of a defunct solenoid)

Could you let me know which edition of Mini magazine had advice for auto's in and I will try and order a back copy? I have a subscription to Mini World but may consider switching if its a decent article.

Would be interested in Martin's thoughts if spots this thread.

This is a great forum and thanks for helping!

998auto

[kalkat]

During the Minis existence, there have been a 'few' changes to ring gear/starter motor specifications. Although you say you have an inertia starter, which would put the cars age between 1970 and 1985,has the engine ever been changed or is it the original engine?

Original starters have had 8,9 or even 10 tooth pinions, the later pre-engaged starter does only seem to come in one flavour of pinion so that seems to rule out that.

One point to check is which side of the ring gear the 'lead' (angle on the edge of the teeth) is on the teeth as this will show which type of motor you should be using if the engine/gearbox/torque converter has been changed at any point


Emma

[998auto]

Wow, so it could be something as simple as the number of teeth.

I did not know that pre 1985 engines had different starter motors.

Mini Sport only sell the 10 teeth variety.

However I have just had a look at Moss Europe who sell the 9 teeth variety as well. Not sure where I would get a the 8 teeth variety.

This would certainly explain the jamming. However how has it managed to run in the past if it is the wrong starter pinion?

I'll take a look at the weekend to see which side the lead is.

Do I have to take the casing/cover off to see this or is it possible to see from where the starter motor sits?

Also which side of the ring gear indicates which variety?

[kalkat]

You should be able to see the edge of the ring gear through the starter hole. If the angle/lead on the teeth is immediately visible, you should be using an inertia starter. The thing about the number of teeth on the pinion is to do with the angles on the teeth face, I can't remember what those are at present - sorry. You could check the engine number against some of the online data bases to check its age, and that might tell you if it's original or not. Also is it an A or A+ engine (this also narrows down the age) A series engines have 'smooth' blocks while A+ have ribs.

The reason behind these questions is not necessarily obvious until you know that wrong angles on gear teeth can cause meshing or binding problems Sometimes gears will run together but one or both may suffer deformation .... leading to the whole caboodle locking up

I may be wrong ....you might need a new ring gear, but I would check out these things first - it might save you a few hundred pounds

Emma

[asahartz]

Quite a few old ones in my shed from various cars... never counted the teeth, but you never know...

[998auto]

Cheers Asahartz.

Kalkat,

Any idea where I can find one of the online databases.

My engine number starts 99H 998P .

From what I can see on certain sites (although I don't know if I am correct) is that it is an A+ high compression engine. Which places it in the early 1980's onwards.

I will try and make time tomorrow evening to take the starter motor off, but looking through an inspection hole this evening the lead seems to facing the offside of the car.

[asahartz]

If its an A+ it should have the later starter with the attached solenoid - that's almost certainly your problem.

My Elfie's the same; I completely rewired the front end of the engine bay when I fitted that engine as I'd already converted to alternator and it was getting untidy.

[kalkat]

How about : -

Source Vehicle : Mini
Engine type & CC : A+ 998 cc Transverse mounted
Fueling :
Engine features :
Lucas 16AC alternator with -ve Earth
Mechanical petrol pump
ADO 20 Design variants
Gearbox features :
Automatic Gearbox - MK II b
3.27:1 Final Drive

....any of that sound right?

But as an A+ ....It needs a pre-engaged starter


Emma

[998auto]

I do have a pre-engaged starter motor in the garage from the manual engine I have so I could offer that up and see if it fits??

I would be surprised if it should have a pre-engaged so I might be wrong about it being an A+ engine.

Took the old starter motor off this evening and it definately has ten teeth. The ring gear teeth are worn, from where it stops.

Cannot remember how many teeth the original one had when I bought the car, but I assume that had ten because it jammed as well.

Does anybody know where I can check the engine number?

[Pink-Shifty]

Nov 5, 2009 18:12:08 GMT asahartz said:

If its an A+ it should have the later starter with the attached solenoid - that's almost certainly your problem.

My Elfie's the same; I completely rewired the front end of the engine bay when I fitted that engine as I'd already converted to alternator and it was getting untidy.

Sorry but there is a "Cross-over" period, some A+ units were fitted with the inertia(early) type starter.

Usually if the wrong type of starters fitted the engine locks up won't turn at all(I know this from experience!!)

I'd certainly try a different starter before ripping the engine apart as the symptoms you describle point to a worn starter.

(I should point out that my experiences are with a manual car)

Last one I got was a recon from my local motor factors and cost about £25.

[998auto]

When I first got the car it ran for about two months before it jammed. I was able to realease it by turning the nut on the back of the starter motor.

I then changed the starter motor for a re-conditioned unit but swapped the old one. It ran fine for 8 months or so and started again. Now it is so bad I cannot run it.

This suggests to me that it should be an inertia style starter motor (as it ran for so long) but Emma may be correct on the number of teeth on the pinion.

Moss Europe sell the 9 tooth version which goes up to 1985. As a 1984 car it would fall into this category, I also think it is the original engine looking at the wiring and the state of the rubber on the engine mounts, I need to check it against the log book though.

Ideally what I need to do is match the engine number with a parts catalogue but I am at a loss as where to find this info.

[kalkat]

A pre-engaged starter from a manual car will fit. Be careful it's not from a Metro as the solenoid is mounted in a different place/the end plate is different (but still fits) and it will try and demolish your grille from the inside (unless you're a Clubby owner)

You might will need to do some wiring mods too if your vehicle has a seperate solenoid


Emma

[998auto]

Ok,

I sent an E-mail to Moss and they advised me that the 9 tooth and 10 tooth starter motors are sold under the same part number by Lucas and Unipart, therefore they should be fully compatible.

As far as they know BMC did not specify the 9 tooth version for automatics.

However I may still take a chance and get my self a 9 tooth version starter motor.

[kalkat]

Any joy with this ((*....or has the pants weather 'stopped play'?

Emma

[998auto]

Hi Emma,
Not had chance to do anything yet. In fact its the other way round. The weather has been cold, but dry here. I tend to head for the garage when its wet and I can't get outdoors.

Been having a look on line and came across a high performance starters at minispeed. The blurb states that there is huge increase in cranking power regardless of compression or temperature.

They are a bit pricy but any thoughts on whether this would solve the problem?

[kalkat]

I think you really need to sort out what the issue is here, rather then trying to fix it with brute force. If the starter is wrong (I don't think so 'cos you've got leads on the OS/outside of the ring gear) or if the ring gear is fooped

I would say have a look ALL the way round the gear, it may be there's something in the way/burred. Is the torque converter properly on the crank taper and the end bolt tight? If it weren't - that would cause problems (although you might have noticed the effects from this one ).
Are the fastening holes for the starter properly clear and the threads in good order? Is the moter shaft true not bent?

All of these 'little' problems can add up to a great big headache - and can sometimes be resolved with little more than time rather than punching holes in your bank account

Emma

[998auto]

Cheers Emma,

I will try and conduct a full inspection. Is it possible to get the cover off with the engine in or this an engine out job?

[kalkat]

You can inspect the ring gear through the starter and timing holes. Removing the cover involves undoing the engine mount under the housing

Don't forget to keep turning the engine the same way throughout, and I would suggest putting tippex or similar on one of the teeth so's you don't end up going round and round and ........


Emma

[mra-minis]

Hi Jodie & Emma,

We make said tool if you need one 18G1086

Regards Martin

[998auto]

Excellent. How much Martin?

Where are you based?

Can't see any damage but then again not entirely sure how it should be. The teeth are definately worn in one place.

I'm going to do an oil change next weekend, run it for a while and check it again to see if there are any issues when it gets hot.

I'll let you know how I get on.

[joakwin]

i took a flywheel puller and then drilled the holes to make them small enuff to fit onto the 3 bolts needed to pull a auto mini's torque convertor

[mra-minis]

Special Tool 18G1086

Now ready to purchase if / when needed

We are now making them in house and our first batch was finished today (yes I know it's Sunday)

mra-minis.co.uk/product_info.php?cPath=22_116_134&products_id=681

Thanks
Regards Martin & Debbie
MRA Minis

[jockduck]

[

One thing i will advise you on though is dont touch the bolts around the torque convertor!! if memory serves me correct i think theres six of them? Never ever remove these otherwise thats the end of the torque convertor

The 6 bolts hold the hub of the torque converter to the main casing, ther are 3 dowels also. Between the internal face of the hub and the casing there is an "O" ring, If you remove all six bolts then the seal of this ring can be disturbed and the converter will leak, the official line is to have the converter split to replace the seal.

[998auto]

Cheers Jockduck & Martin/Debbie,

I will let everybody know how I get on.