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Post by clarko on Dec 27, 2016 19:20:38 GMT
Hello everybody, I've recently restored a Mini Clubman Estate 998cc automatic, bought the car as a complete restoration job, previously been stood for 10 years! Finished the car, overhauled the engine, new gaskets, parts etc but never touched the box, didn't think there was many user serviceable parts in it. Initial start up was ok, slight wait to get into reverse, which would slip with full throttle, but any throttle position up to this was ok. All forward gears engaged ok, first would be the same as reverse, full throttle slip, up to this ok, and all the rest of the gears were fine, slight flare from 3-4 but nothing major, wouldn't slip at all. I run this for a couple of weeks and dropped the oil and filter, really black, so fresh in, I used Halfords 20w50 motor oil, no difference in performance, so it was then parked up. Yesterday went to go for a run and for some reason the gearbox slips in every gear to the point where it hardly drives, if you use it in D, or go through the gears manually it's the same, strangely though reverse is fine, no slipping! So today thought I'd check the oil pressure, it's around 120psi when reverse engaged and about 80psi when in any of the forward gears, so thought this wasn't too bad. I then thought I'd take the front cover off the gearbox, and see if I could see anything, dropped the oil, black again, maybe done 20-30 miles in the car, and took the cover off, inside was thick with sludge and little bits of stuff, couldn't really make out what they were, the magnetic sump plug was thick with sludgy stuff as well! Removed the valve block and cleaned with petrol and then rebuilt with fresh oil and refitted, cleaning as much of the crud I could out of the box, noticed the servo band arms, 3 in a line that the outer one can be pressed down very nearly touching the casing before it stops, the other two about half an inch? Don't know if this is correct. Rebuilt, new oil and filter, run the car, exactly the same! At a loss now as to what it is, think it's buggerd personally, the cars done 76,000 miles, so overdue a service possibly? Any ideas much appreciated!
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Post by limby2000 on Dec 27, 2016 20:03:25 GMT
Hi clarko, Welcome to the register, first off i commend you in your gung-ho attitude and approach, you obviously not a novice with mechanic,s. From what you,ve stated so far i would say imo the bits found in amongst the black sludge was the remnants of the clutch and brakeband component,s. The friction parts eventually come away from the steels. The correct oil is 10w40 ma2 oil and not 20w50,and this was probably part of your problem. Forward and reverse use different clutch packs and bands so this can be explained. What year is your clubman?. 76,000 is a good mileage for one of these boxes, the dozens of seals, "o" rings inside the box harden and split, in doing so the gearbox loses working oil pressure which it rely,s of to function correctly. You have several option,s but it you keep using with it metal on metal you may do irrepairable damage. Regards Terry.
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Post by limby2000 on Dec 27, 2016 20:07:55 GMT
Did the crud look like brown flakes?.
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Post by clarko on Dec 27, 2016 20:17:23 GMT
Thank you for the replies limby2000, the car is 1978, was totally rotten when I got it, it's had ££££'s spent on it, the pieces in the bottom were almost like bits of really small straw, funnily enough!! everything was totally black in there, I'm guessing the previous owner hasn't bothered a lot with servicing at all. I'm a marine hydraulic engineer by trade, so quite handy with the spanners, is a clutch plate pack available for one of these, is it a specialist job to do? Was pondering a manual gearbox once over, or is that swearing on this forum!!!😬
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Post by clarko on Dec 27, 2016 20:19:52 GMT
I will be quite gutted if ive caused this from putting the wrong grade oil in!!
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Post by limby2000 on Dec 27, 2016 22:08:22 GMT
All the clutch parts are available, as are all the brake bands and seal packs.i would recommend reading all you can regarding these gearboxes, most you can get on here. I rebuilt mine and found it a good experience. If you visit the Austin America site it covers the strip down and rebuild, although an earlier gearbox example, it does mention if stored too long in old/used engine oil destroy,s the seals. Martin on here (mra) rebuild,s these boxes and sells all the parts for people to do themselves. Also Jpats also sells parts. Changing to manaul is the cheap option if your not worried about originality, thats up to you. Funny enough my mum owned an orange auto clubman estate in 1981 but she had the one with the stainless trim around the wood efect stickers.
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Post by limby2000 on Dec 27, 2016 22:16:59 GMT
Not mum,s but the same. The old man put a 1275 lump in it out of an Austin 1300 auto.
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Post by clarko on Dec 28, 2016 10:02:46 GMT
What sort of price and availability are the parts for these gearboxes?, thank you limby2000 for the advice to look at the Austin america site, I think possibly the damage to mine was done while sitting not turning a wheel for 10 years in dirty oil, as you say, going to keep the car original and repair/replace the box. I was looking to sell the car, but I'll put this right first, it's no good at the minute, does anybody know if there's a lot of interest in the Clubman Estates, you don't seem to see many around?
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Post by mikerotherham on Dec 28, 2016 18:52:15 GMT
What a fine looking car.
There is a lot of interest in estates but I think the automatic box might put people off.
I've never understood that myself although I can see the AP version needs looking after for a long life.
Ironically, when most people change their daily driver to an automatic they rarely want to go back to a manual.
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Post by clarko on Dec 28, 2016 19:55:33 GMT
Hi Mike, the cars pretty good now was poor when I got it, thank you for your comments. I'll recondition or renew the gearbox, the car will be kept original that way. A couple of pictures when I started!
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Post by limby2000 on Dec 28, 2016 21:27:39 GMT
I would say, strip your box down first, you dont want to be ordering parts that are good. Photograph and write down the sequence you take it apart, it will help when rebuilding. Get yourself plenty of various sized tupperware boxes (pound shop) jobbies. If you were keeping longtime i would say pick up a later 1275 box from early 90,s onward as they are better boxes having better clutch packs. I,m sure once you,ve taken your apart you will see the guilty parts. Did you have a metal rubbing sound?.
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Post by clarko on Dec 28, 2016 22:10:27 GMT
Hi limby2000, the engines out and in the workshop now, there was a metallic whining noise when first put into gear, so obviously not good, I think I have chance of a 998 engine and box from a 1982 Clubman with a genuine 21,600 miles from new, which has been in regular use but the guys changing to a manual so wants rid of it, so going to fit this I think, putting the correct oil in this time though!!, thank you for your help, much appreciated, might strip the original and see what parts it needs, if they're not too expensive, then replace them and have a reconditioned spare, I'm quite interested to take it to pieces if I'm honest with you!!
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Post by limby2000 on Dec 28, 2016 22:31:41 GMT
Yes, its worth stripping just to get an idea how it works. You might get lucky with the other lump, its obviously a lot cheaper option, fingers crossed its a good,en. I think its not an issue too much with miles as the all tend to play up around 50,000. It,s more that they have had regular oil changes. How much did you pay?, it sounds a bargain. Terry.
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Post by clarko on Dec 28, 2016 22:38:21 GMT
Hi terry, the guy wants £50 for the lot, waiting for him to get back to me with a bit more information on it, but it sounds a bargain to me, is there anything much I can check, obviously I can ask for a look at the service history all I can think is to pull the dipstick and check/smell the oil, maybe spin the filter off for a check, but at that price, probably just snap his hand off!!! John.
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Post by limby2000 on Dec 29, 2016 0:34:26 GMT
You,ve gotta take it for that, tbh i bought a 998 auto from a forum member near me for 150, he put a turbo engine in his car. I test drove it and it drove like a dream. I eventually decided to strip down and it turned out it probably only had another 6 month,s left on the forward clutch. So you cant even tell by driving it. But hey ,youve gotta go for it, well done. Keep us informed how you go.
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Post by clarko on Dec 31, 2016 19:16:22 GMT
Bit of an update, picked the engine up yesterday, really pleased, the appearance is good, genuine 22600 miles under its belt, the previous guy picked the car up in Avon, and drove it back to Stockport, which never missed a beat, which is promising, it's only been out of the car a couple of months which is good also. Just cleaning and repainting at the minute. The one problem I can see is that my drive shaft flanges, which just pop out of the diff, they're on a spline with a circlip part way down, the section which runs on the fluted bearing/lip seal is a lot bigger? The details stamped into the box reads issue 2 on my original, and issue 3 on the new one? Does anybody know the exact dimensions that the flange has to be for the issue 3, ill machine mine down on the lathe if I know a figure, there's plenty of meat on them. Just off topic a bit, the new engine is a 1981, whereas mine is a 1978, I was putting lead replacement in the fuel, do I still need to with this engine, did they introduce unleaded at this time? Thanks John.
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Post by limby2000 on Dec 31, 2016 20:37:34 GMT
What year was your gearbox, and what is the replacement?. Did,nt realise there was different sizes, alway,s thought there was hardy spicer or the modern cvj with the 5 Ping Pong, also the manuals had the rubber trunion with the 4x u-bolts.
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Post by robertm on Dec 31, 2016 20:48:42 GMT
Unleaded gasoline A 1981 lump, you might have a lead free A+ cylinder head. Cylinder heads with casting "CAM4180" 998 Mini A+ (80 on) & lead free www.calverst.com/technical-info/identification-by-casting-number/Identification by casting number Number Inlet dia. Exhaust dia. Nominal cc Standard fitment 2A628 1.0625"/26.99 1.00"/25.4 24.5 850, 998 Mini & 948 Sprite 2A629 1.0625"/26.99 1.00"/25.4 24.5 948, A35 & Morris Minor 12A1456 1.0625"/26.99 1.00"/25.4 24.5 850, 998 Mini & 948 Sprite 12G202 1.156"/29.36 1.00"/25.4 26.1 997 Cooper, Austin 1100 Mk CAM4180 1.0625"/26.99 1.00"/25.4 25.5 998 Mini - A+ (1980-on) and lead free 12G206 1.218"/30.93 1.00"/25.4 28.3 Early 998 Cooper, MG1100 12G295 1.218"/30.93 1.00"/25.4 28.3 998 Cooper, MG1100 12A185 1.401"/35.6 1.22"/31.0 21.4 First Mk1 Cooper S AEG163 1.401"/35.6 1.22"/31.0 21.4 Later Mk1 & Mk2 Cooper S 12G940* 1.312"/33.33 1.15"/29.2 21.4 1275GT, Austin 1300, all late A+ models inc. Turbo but not MG Metro 12G940 1.401"/35.6 1.15"/29.2 21.4 Stamped '12G1805' on flat area by thermostat - MG1300, 1300GT & Mk3 Cooper S 12G940* 1.401"/35.6 1.15"/29.2 21.4 As above plus MG Metro 12G940* 1.312"/33.33 1.15"/29.2 21.4 Single point injection, also numbered 12G940B cast into head at clutch end 12G940* 1.312"/33.33 1.15"/29.2 21.4 Multi point injection, also with a number starting 'LDF10…' cast into head at clutch end and painted black *Note: * A+ head castings - despite having the same 12G940 casting number - are considerably different in appearance, loosing the flat area behind the thermostat housing and around the rest of the rocker/head stud areas to a sculptured look - where these areas are replaced by a 'sunken' cast finish. The A+ castings were introduced with the appearance of the Metro in 1980, although some late 1275GTs (1979-on) had them fitted. Generally they are easily recognised by their colour - a putrid yellow on the small-bore castings and bright red on the large-bore ones, a paint finish that is VERY difficult to remove, even in a chemical tank.
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Post by limby2000 on Dec 31, 2016 20:52:23 GMT
Factory unleaded started in 1989 in mini,s. Metro,s had it a year earlier i beleive. Checkmate, racing green and mini 30 were the first.
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Post by clarko on Dec 31, 2016 20:58:25 GMT
The original was a 1978, the new one is a 1981, the flanges are just 4 captive bolts, flat face with a small machined spigot in the middle, it's not a massive problem, can be turned, just need to know the dimension that's all, hard to measure, as there's not a lot of room from the splined shaft to the bearing, suppose I could get the details of the lip seal, and see what size shaft it's supposed to seal on and go on the top side of it? Thank you for that Robertm, won't have to mess about with the LRP!
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Post by limby2000 on Dec 31, 2016 21:33:02 GMT
Thats hardy spicer youve got there, fitted to early auto,s and the early mini coopers. Some people would say they were the best but maybe more prone to fatigue. Not sure what year they stopped as the kept going on the auto models. I would have thought as your 78 did,nt have them your new engine must be older. You can date the new engine from the engine number, just go on the guessworks website and put in the number box.
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Post by clarko on Dec 31, 2016 22:08:50 GMT
Apologies for the confusion terry, the new engine didn't have any drive shaft couplings on the gearbox, I've just tried swapping them from the 78 onto the 81, the 81 being the same sized spline shaft but different lip seal and bearing
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Post by limby2000 on Dec 31, 2016 23:22:30 GMT
Sorry i see now, still did,nt realise they done them two different sizes. Would,nt be easier just pick up a new pair of inner pot sets to match the ones your missing.
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Post by limby2000 on Jan 1, 2017 11:00:44 GMT
Perhaps you,ll need these.
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Post by limby2000 on Jan 1, 2017 11:05:13 GMT
Hi John, just wondered, is your new engine not a+ as 82 perhaps should be.
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Post by limby2000 on Jan 1, 2017 14:49:51 GMT
If you turn down the pot joints to fit, you will have the issue of not having a c-clip to hold em in, they may pop out when on full lock.
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Post by clarko on Jan 2, 2017 21:27:42 GMT
Hi Terry, sorry been busy with the new engine for the last couple of days, cleaning and painting, I've measured the original drive shaft flanges and they measure 35mm O.D on the surface that runs on the bearing/lip seal. The lipseal/bearing on the new engine, I've measured it to be 32.25mm, which allows a bit of nip on the lip seal, but not too tight on the fluted bronze bush inside, don't want them to expand when hot and seize up, so 2.75mm off them isn't too bad, they're going to be turned and case hardened tomorrow. The circlip is internal, it's on the splined shaft coming out of the box, so me altering the external isn't going to bother it, they'll still be fastened int the box like normal. A quick photo of the engine ready to go in, waiting for the drive adaptors.
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Post by clarko on Jan 2, 2017 23:27:27 GMT
Hi terry, the new engine is an A+ version, there's a couple of different bits, the forked clamp on the distributor, and the mounting holes for the alternator are further to the radiator, with a shorter mounting bracket. Are these engines better in any way than the standard A? The block looks a little bit more beefed up in its casting ribs too?
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Post by limby2000 on Jan 3, 2017 12:26:09 GMT
The main advantage is you can now use a dizzy from a later car with electronic ignition,the rods are also press fit gudgeon pins, but a lot is interchangable. Sounds like a bargain.
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Post by clarko on Jan 3, 2017 13:16:07 GMT
Just going to pick the oil and filter up while the drive adaptors are being machines, is a 10w40 semi synthetic ok to use? Struggling to pick the 10w40 mineral oil where I live?
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