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Post by Stu on Jul 5, 2015 14:57:39 GMT
Well, to say I'm annoyed with myself would be an understatement.
Yesterday I bought and brought home a Mini engine and auto gearbox. I got it to break for spares, specifically to have some spares for the auto engine and AP box which I will be overhauling to go into my project Mini, as some parts are near impossible to get hold of now. Even if I don't need them they might be useful in the future, so collecting for stock is always a good idea to me.
Anyway, as I don't have a van or trailer, I needed to break the short engine from the box where I picked it up so I could lift the gearbox and block separately to get it all in my car to bring it home. I couldn't get it separated so we managed to haul the whole lot into my car, ad I used my engine crane to get it out at my house without incident.
I made the dumbass mistake of not setting the engine to TDC to prevent the C washer from slipping out and locking the flywheel on while removing the torque convertor.
When using the puller and putting force into my breaker bar, I felt the convertor break from the crankshaft but then it immediately locked up again and wouldn't come off. It wasn't just tight. I broke two puller bolts tying to get it off, and know for sure it did release so its not just still stuck on the crankshaft.
So now I'm sure I have the C washer slipped from the crankshaft into the gap of the convertor which is preventing it from being removed, so I cant break the engine down because I cant split the engine from the box.
I've taken my angle grinder to the convertor, which nearly made me cry as these are really useful to have spare, but there is no other option so its just tough.
God knows how I'll get it off but I think I'll strip off all I can and go from there.
Taking the positives, I suppose I should get more or less what I wanted with spares and bits, minus a perfectly good convertor 
Lesson learnt!
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Post by wimfournier on Jul 6, 2015 9:41:37 GMT
Well Stu, I can imagine the state of mind you were in when you understood how the converter was stuck to the crankshaft.
Now you have used the angle grinder so far, you can answer a question I have in mind.
We know that the engine oil in our Mini's is contaminated with ashes and coal from the burned gas in the cilinders.
Since this same oil is used in the gear box you may think that those ashes and coal are 'centrifuged' in the converter.
So, I think that most converters will have a layer of coal and ashes at the inner circumference, less or more blocking the free spinning part of the converter, that drives the drop gears to the in going axle of the box.
What can you tell us about your findings in this respect?
Is there a lot of durt in the converter house?
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Post by Stu on Jul 6, 2015 9:53:18 GMT
I've still not got it off yet, but I am managing to hack sections off with the grinder. I have no idea how I'm going to get the gearbox separated from the block.
Anyway, the oil was black, but the exposed elements of the convertor seem quite clean with no significant gunk build up. If it helps, I could post up some photos of the exposed elements of the TC if you like, although it's not a pretty sight!
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Post by jockduck on Jul 7, 2015 0:44:35 GMT
Hi, Well its a horrible sight and a lesson to us who would wield spanners, I have to admit I have also popped flywheels without being at TDC and got away with it, this sort of thing must have happened lots of times when minis and 1100s were common, I assume you turned the engine to TDC retightened the Torque Converter, tapped the centre with a hammer to try to get the C clip to drop back in before trying again?
IanB
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Post by Stu on Jul 7, 2015 13:31:08 GMT
Hi Ian,
Im fairly sure the C washer has bent as I tried again with the breaker bar on the puller after it initially released and tightened again, but yes I did try it with expected results.
I'm still trying to hack chunks of convertor off the crank to get access to the washer so I can knock it back into position to allow the TC to be removed.
I'm hoping tonight's efforts after work will yield results, and I'll post up some TC torture pics later 
Regards, Stu. |
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Post by wimfournier on Jul 7, 2015 16:49:41 GMT
Stu (wat is your first name, fully -I have a feeling I know you in the mean while-) I'm understanding the trouble you are in at the moment. But be brave, you will attend the situation that you can split the engine form the box. All those who are reading and will read the troubles you are in at the moment will learn. And this community lives by the stories that are told and at the same time will support the ones that go trough the difficulties the AP box presents. Yust go on and keep us informed.
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Post by Stu on Jul 7, 2015 22:23:55 GMT
Hi Wimfounier,Thank you for your supportive words. My first name is Stuart, Stu for short.
Tonight after tea I succeeded in getting the convertor off the crank end. I managed to break in to expose the C washer, which appeared to be intact on the crank.
I had to literally cut into the convertor collar where it contacts the taper of the crank and use a chisel and hammer to break it free.
The remains of the convertor ...............
It may be that the convertor collar was cold welded to the crank taper. As I broke several bolts trying to get it off with the puller I felt I had no choice but to break it out this way anyway. Perhaps if I had a really strong puller and bolts I may have been able to pop it off, but hindsight, as always, is a wonderful thing!
Unfortunately I've nicked the crank with the grinder so I doubt I'll be able to use it again.
and the collar of the primary gear has sustained some damage probably due to all the impact
One thing I do know is that I NEVER want to have to go though that again. It went against everything we try to do to preserve, restore and run the AP autos, so I'm not really to happy about the ordeal as I've destroyed a Torque Convertor and a crank, but I'll get over it I guess.
On the positive, I've had a really good clean up in the garage (lots and lots of ground metal to clean up) so I can now start to disassemble the engine and gearbox to put away for spares.
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Post by wimfournier on Jul 8, 2015 16:29:24 GMT
In the end; well done Stuart. If you would have to reuse the crank, a little weld will clean up the cut you made by accident.
When I look at the pictures showing the debris in the inside of the converter, I still can imagine that the centrifugal power that is inside the converter can apply a cover of dirt on the wall.
What is your opinion Stuart, could that hinder the free spinning between the driving and driven part so much, that applying power from one to the other could be so abrupt that the clutches inside the box have a hard time?
At rest my engine is spinning about 700 rpm. When I engage the first drive it goes with a 'bonk' and after that I put down the accelerator a little to drive away.
When I don't wait till after the 'bonk' and open the throttle immediately my tires they screem for hold on the road.
So I consider to have my converter reconditioned (after 37 years of use).
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Post by Stu on Jul 8, 2015 19:56:10 GMT
I would assume that over time the convertor would become less efficient at oil flow between the turbine, stator and impeller assembly if the surfaces have material build up for sure. The photo of the convertor stator above did have a layer of grinding filings on it caused by my brutal 'surgery' , so it's difficult to tell, but I agree, after 37 years of service one would fully expect it not to be as efficient as if it were new, or reconditioned.
I think having a convertor reconditioned after such a long service would be a smart move and would certainly provide improved torque transfer performance . I'm fairly sure they also re-new the bearings too, which would further improve performance and as you say, reduce unwanted stress to the clutches and gearbox.
Your transmission 'snatch' would normally be due to the idle speed being too high, but I see you've already ruled that out as you've said your idle speed is 700 rpm which seems about right and not excessive. My Foulis manual says the correct engine idle speed should be 650 rpm, so perhaps dropping yours by 50rpm and reconditioning the convertor may help to reduce the transmission snatch. I'd be very interested to see how you might get on.
Tonight I got the box split from the engine and have started to disassemble.
 
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Post by mra-minis on Nov 13, 2015 15:51:37 GMT
Learning is all about making mistakes.... we have all made mistakes and anyone who says they have never made a mistake has just made a big mistake by saying so !
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Post by Stu on Nov 13, 2015 17:38:23 GMT
As it turns out once I'd got the convertor hacked off and I'd cut through the collar it just came off easilly with the C washer located neatly on the crank groove. The convertor was simply cold welded onto the crank and I could'nt remove it by normal means with heat / leaving the puller on etc etc. Apart from being really annoyd I'd had to cut up a good convertor I suppose I've learnt a few things. Good to see you back on here MRA  |
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Post by mra-minis on Nov 13, 2015 18:22:07 GMT
As it turns out once I'd got the convertor hacked off and I'd cut through the collar it just came off easilly with the C washer located neatly on the crank groove. The convertor was simply cold welded onto the crank and I could'nt remove it by normal means with heat / leaving the puller on etc etc. Apart from being really annoyd I'd had to cut up a good convertor I suppose I've learnt a few things. Good to see you back on here MRA I make a very heavy duty flywheel and convertor puller for Guess-works gearboxes... gauranteed for life and in reality you should never have this issue again as I have pulled loads off over the last ..... years and never failed, even welded on flywheels. |
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Post by mra-minis on Nov 13, 2015 18:24:29 GMT
Stu, thanks for the welcome back :-) also do you need a convertor ? I have dozens of them sitting waiting to go on eBay..
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Post by Stu on Nov 15, 2015 9:21:29 GMT
I have one I can use, but was thinking about either getting it reconditioned by Jpat or purchasing a recon one. I've got the full re-build kit for my AP2 and thought it'd be good to get a recon one but a spare would be useful.
How much are yours (I assume un reconditioned)?
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Post by wimfournier on Nov 15, 2015 13:11:28 GMT
Talking about converters. Am I right thinking that after decades of sitting and spinning the internals of the converter will be contaminated by coal and other deposits from the engine oil that have cooked on the inner circumferance of the converter by centrifugaal forces, limiting the supple seizure when getting into move.
Is it therefore good to get the converter opened up and cleaned inside?
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Post by mra-minis on Nov 15, 2015 13:58:03 GMT
Talking about converters. Am I right thinking that after decades of sitting and spinning the internals of the converter will be contaminated by coal and other deposits from the engine oil that have cooked on the inner circumferance of the converter by centrifugaal forces, limiting the supple seizure when getting into move. Is it therefore good to get the converter opened up and cleaned inside? No not really, I get to open up loads of convertors and rarely do I see any significant amount of deposit... in most cases either remove the plug and flush or drill, drain/flush re weld and linish will be good enough... if at this point you get any reasonable amount of debris then a recon or 2nd hand would be a good idea for a flush/weld/linish/check I charge £50 If you attempt to do it yourself be-careful of the vanes as you can damage them easuly enough or break the drill bit inside. I also check the bush diameters to ensure they fall within the tolerance required. |
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Post by mra-minis on Nov 15, 2015 14:00:02 GMT
I have one I can use, but was thinking about either getting it reconditioned by Jpat or purchasing a recon one. I've got the full re-build kit for my AP2 and thought it'd be good to get a recon one but a spare would be useful. How much are yours (I assume un reconditioned)? Hi Stu For a second hand fully checked converter I charge £100 |
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Post by Stu on Nov 15, 2015 14:09:52 GMT
Thanks. I'm a long way off the engine / box re-build as I'm on with the body resto at the moment, but am slowly gathering what I need.
I guess it'd be cheaper to ask you to recon the one I have if you can do a recon for £50. Where about are you located?
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Post by mra-minis on Nov 16, 2015 1:32:10 GMT
Thanks. I'm a long way off the engine / box re-build as I'm on with the body resto at the moment, but am slowly gathering what I need. I guess it'd be cheaper to ask you to recon the one I have if you can do a recon for £50. Where about are you located? Hi Stu, I am in Northamptonshire... however please note I said a check/ drain etc not recon, a recon convertor is a whole different beast and is about the £300 mark as it has to be stripped ie cut in half re-manufactured parts added and adjusted then welded up pressure tested and balanced. |
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Post by Stu on Nov 16, 2015 19:48:30 GMT
Ah yes ok, Sorry. I remember JPat quoting similar for a full recon one too. I think I'll see if the one I have works ok but might take you up on a checked and flushed spare one. Do you have plenty spare and what would postage be to East Yorkshire? Thanks.
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Post by Stu on Nov 17, 2015 15:12:46 GMT
Taking account of what MRA says about the convertors not having any heavy deposits in them when opened up, is it really nesessary to have them reconditioned at all, or would a flush/weld/linish/check be enough in most cases?
Anyone??
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Post by mra-minis on Nov 18, 2015 9:44:55 GMT
Taking account of what MRA says about the convertors not having any heavy deposits in them when opened up, is it really nesessary to have them reconditioned at all, or would a flush/weld/linish/check be enough in most cases? Anyone?? A flush is often good enough for most convertors However there a few things that can go wrong, there are bushes to wear the convertor can lock up solid and no amount f flushing will help.. so yes flushing is a useful method to check for damage, ie bits of metal swarf coming out will (or should) tell you it's time for a replacement. |
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